My Response to Redditor u/Accurate1nvestigator (Formerly u/RibeyeSteakPresident and u/USAF_Veteran)
Over the past few years, a user on Reddit's ExMormon community has been posting, deleting, and reposting the same thing over and over again. So I decided to take to my blog so that I can just repost a link containing my response any time I come across the same claims that pretend to be uncontested.
Violating one's covenants would not result in the expense of one's life, as is evident by so many who have left the faith and broken those covenants. Everything in the temple is symbolic, and the penalties were no exception.
Log: u/RibeyeSteakPresident's Posts
"Did you know that prior to April of 1990 members used to pantomime in the Temple slitting their own throats and disemboweling themselves?This was referred to as the symbolic penalty and is a part of the Masonic teaching method. Just as in Masonry, it was only ever symbolic (in this case, of the importance/value of our covenants with God) and was never carried out by Church authority. By this portion of the ceremony, the value of sacred things was instilled into the culture of the Church.
"…
"Did you know that members used to say[,] 'I suffer my life to be taken' if they broke the Covenant and obligation of Secrecy they were taking?"
"Did you know that the reason the Endowment was changed wasn't because of revelation, but was because the Members took a Survey in 1988 (my parents and leaders) all took this survey.
"…
"And the church found out via that 1988 survey that members didn't want to attend the temple, which is why they ultimately changed the Endowment."
The Endowment itself was not changed, but, rather, merely the ceremony that conveys it was. There is a difference between the Endowment (that which is endowed upon someone) and the Endowment ceremony (the vehicle whereby the Endowment is bestowed/conferred/conveyed).
That stated, it really isn't for you or anyone else to say or imply whether or not the First Presidency was not inspired to send that survey out to anyone.
That stated, it really isn't for you or anyone else to say or imply whether or not the First Presidency was not inspired to send that survey out to anyone.
"Faith doesn't trump Facts."
Correct; this equally applies to those who have faith that things are not true. Rather, facts should inform faith.
"Jeffrey R. Holland (Lying for the Lord) before admitting 'we used [to].'
"…
"Holland tried to lie and act like the vow which is made is regarding the ordinance of the temple, he lies further when he says[,] 'he would not tell anyone about his personal pledge to the Lord.' If you listened to the 1984 Audio I included the Lord is never mentioned. Instead if you violated this covenant with its name, sign, and penalty you were saying 'I suffer my life to be taken.' In other words violating this would have been at the expense of your own life. …"
Elder Holland was put between a rock and a hard place on the record, the rock here being respect for sacred things and the hard place being the need for honesty to a hostile question. It's not like he was given the opportunity beforehand to rehearse his answer. Having been interviewed myself, it is evident to me that Holland was thinking on his feet trying to maintain that respect for holiness while still being honest. For you to claim that he was lying here indicates to me that you've never been so interviewed in your life.
Violating one's covenants would not result in the expense of one's life, as is evident by so many who have left the faith and broken those covenants. Everything in the temple is symbolic, and the penalties were no exception.
That all stated, all covenants made in the temple are made with God, given that it is His house.
"It's a Cult."Cult is synonymous with religion; arguably, the only people who aren't cultists are atheists. If you subscribe to any religious or spiritual ideology, then you are no more or less a cultist than I (as a Latter-day Saint) am.
"Your New Name in the Temple isn't special either …"Again, it is symbolic, not literal.
"Even when Mormonism changed the temple endowment again in 2019, they asked their members not to discuss it outside of the temple. Only problem is members don't actually discuss those changes within the temple either, not even in the Celestial room because they are simply unaware of just how often/ how many times the Endowment has been changed/adjusted over the years."Again, even though the ceremony has changed, the Endowment itself has not. To anyone who would like to study the changes made to temple ceremonies (including the endowment ceremony), I recommend the purchase of Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000: A Documentary History.
"Here is Masonry and the Mormon Temple …"
And here is my response to the misinformation presented in that webpage. Interestingly enough, the bit about William Morgan stealing valor does not seem to bother u/USAF_Veteran (AKA u/RibeyeSteakPresident).
"[And] more proof that it came from Masonry …"
Notice that not a single doctrine or covenant of the Church is listed therein.
"I read this quote in a book earlier: 'Feelings are Not Facts' It elaborated with: 'When a man expresses a feeling , it is more like a fact-something he believes to be true but doesn't have a lot of objective evidence to back up. This is not what a woman means when she shares her feelings. For women, feelings are much less about the outer world and more about their experience of the outer world. For women, feelings and facts are very different animals.'"
So, u/USAF_Veteran (AKA u/RibeyeSteakPresident AKA u/Accurate1nvestigator) repeats this theme that feelings are not facts; yet, when a Freemason repeatedly offers firsthand knowledge/experience contradicting their antagonistic views against the Church as they pertain to Freemasonry, the emotional response of dismissing that firsthand knowledge/experience is employed (seemingly) to preserve one's antagonistic echo chamber.
Similar responses have been given to u/USAF_Veteran (AKA u/RibeyeSteakPresident AKA u/Accurate1nvestigator) multiple times over the course of the past years; yet that user continually insists on misrepresenting both The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Freemasonry in their anger against the Church.
Here is my advice to anyone in general: put more stock in primary, authoritative sources in-context (a basic academic standard) rather than secondary/tertiary opinions/gossip/rumor or (frankly) anything out-of-context. If you are going to appeal to Masonry, then use actual Masonic sources (materials published by a legitimate grand lodge jurisdiction). If you're going to attack the Church, be honest about it by not misrepresenting its doctrine with non-doctrinal sources.
Log: u/USAF_Veteran's Posts
Update: u/USAF_Veteran has since deleted their account and has created a new account called u/RibeyeSteakPresident.
Update: u/RibeyeSteakPresident has since deleted their account and has created a new account called u/Accurate1nvestigator.
Log: u/Accurate1nvestigator's Posts
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